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? steps to reading lunar return ?
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Posts: 154

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: ? steps to reading lunar return ? Reply with quote

i assume this topic would be put here.

What steps do you use for approaching and reading a lunar return?

I been approaching the lunar return as reading it by itself and then combining it with birth chart.

The lunar return chart by itself seems to make a bit more sense when I look at it then only looking at it combined with birth chart.

While I am not someone who has heavily studied natal astrology or has much experience in it. I'm curious how everyone else their self approaches it.

I've probably read most of the articles i could come across on google...so I am more curious about you as an individual and your methods.

Like the lunar return for the month my return is coming to a close has lunar return mars in lunar return 7th . I've had major discord.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi eleanor,

i don't work with them often enough to comment... i would probably consider them inside a wider context thru the use of the annual solar return chart, profections and the natal chart itself ... good luck figuring it out..
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 960
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends upon how you interpret the moon. Obviously the moon symbolizes many things. In modern astrology the moon indicates your emotional nature. So a lunar return would be a guide to how you are going to feel during the month ahead. Then I would interpret the stand-alone lunar return chart plus the natal plus LR chart as you would normally. Moon square Mars might indicate a period of angry feelings. Moon trine Jupiter should indicate a lunar month when all feels right with the world.

If you have other lunar concerns like your mother or your home, consider whether the LR chart sheds light on their situations.

Another suggestion would be to consider the lunation cycle. What was the moon's phase at your birth? In the old farming folklore about the moon's cycle, the waxing moon is a good time for things that expand and increase. The waning moon is a time for completion and diminution. Plant or work on new projects with the waxing moon, harvest or do chores that end something during the waning moon. You can plan your month accordingly. I can't say swear that this would make much difference but you might enjoy the feeling of synchronizing with the moon's phases.
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the main rules for the calculating and interpretation the lunar return charts based on the very extensive research of Alexander Marr and my vast testing of them:
1. Lunar return must be calculated for the place of residence and not for the place of birth.
2. Only precessional lunar return is effective.
3. For each lunar return, one must calculate the complementary converse lunar return
4. If the event is more than 14 days from the lunar return, a demi lunar return (2nd harmonic) must be calculated
5. The most important indications in lunar returns are the planets near the angles with a small orb.
6. The great advantage of these returns is that one doesn’t need the exact birth time, as long as it is +/- 10 min from the exact birth time.
Here are some examples for Queen Elizabeth II, born on 2.40 BST. I rectified her chart to 2.38.12 BST Asc 20Cap49’
1. 19 November 1947 marriage
In the lunar return for 5 Nov 1947 Venus is exactly on Desc with Jupiter, Node on Asc.
In the converse lunar return, Mercury and Node on IC
In the converse demi lunar return, casting for 20 September 1904, Venus on MC, Jupiter on IC and Pluto on Desc
2. 14 November 1948 birth of son Charles
In the converse lunar return, Venus on MC, Jupiter on IC
In the demi lunar return, Venus on MC
In the converse demi lunar return Jupiter on Asc, Venus on Desc, Uranus on MC and Pluto on IC.
3. 6 February 1952 death of father
In the lunar return Neptune on Asc with Saturn and Mars
In the converse demi lunar return Neptune on Asc, Saturn on Desc
4. 9 July 1982 Michael Fagan incident
In the converse lunar return Mars on IC and Pluto on Desc- typical for violence. But Venus is also on IC and Jupiter on Desc- a rescue
In the demi lunar return for 8 July 1982 Mars, Saturn and Pluto on MC, Venus on Desc

For further explanations I recommend to read
1. Juan Estadella book Predictive Astrology Chapter 8, available free :

https://juanestadella.com/eng_books.html
2. Alexander Marr’s books Prediction chapters 7, 8 and 9
And Political Astrology pages 1-13
Free downloaded : https://ajak41.wixsite.com/polaris
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 960
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Isaac. I'm impressed. Cool
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3601
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac Starkman wrote:

Here are some examples for Queen Elizabeth II, born on 2.40 BST. I rectified her chart to 2.38.12 BST Asc 20Cap49’
1. 19 November 1947 marriage
In the lunar return for 5 Nov 1947 Venus is exactly on Desc with Jupiter, Node on Asc.


isaac,

she was married on 20th november 11:30 am...

venus is not exactly on the descendant either... i know you are capable of good work, but you are fudging the details here... cheers james

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_of_Princess_Elizabeth_and_Philip_Mountbatten

lunar return just prior to her marriage..



biwheel with transits on the outside are very informative..



might be better captured via sidereal..
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James: you are right that the wedding was on 20 November, but this doesn’t change the lunar return for 5 November.
In a lunar return, a conjunction of a planet with any angle WITH ORB OF LESS THAN 1 DEGREE should be called: exactly. This is not a directional technique that requires an accuracy of minutes of arc:
Desc here 28Sco15’
Venus 28Sco51’
So the orb is 36’
No fudging here
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3601
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi isaac,

solar fire 9 software is giving me ascendant 16 taurus 37 off the 240am birth time.. even if i change it to the rectified time you offer - 2:38:12 am i get 15 taurus 58... so, something is off with one of our astro programs here.. in both of the lunar returns, mercury is closer to the descendant then venus..

i have bst - 1 hour, which adb is saying gdt - same thing...

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Elizabeth_II,_Queen_of_England

cheers james
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,
You are using the tropical lunar return, but see rule 2 in my post from 24 January: one must take into consideration the precession. My experience with thousands of events shows that in most cases (90-95%) only the precessional lunar returns are effective.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1492
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac Starkman wrote:
Quote:
James, You are using the tropical lunar return, but see rule 2 in my post from 24 January: one must take into consideration the precession. My experience with thousands of events shows that in most cases (90-95%) only the precessional lunar returns are effective.

Isaac, there is still a lot of confusion even among long time astrologers about the word "precession" which is used for both tropical and sidereal zodiacs in different contexts. It becomes doubly confusing when tropical astrologers correct for precession in return charts by adding amounts of precession which is apparently what you are doing?

Confusion is removed if the terms tropical and sidereal are used instead. So are you essentially using sidereal year calculations in the tropical zoidac, which is what Marc Penfield does in Solar Returns in Your Face? (I haven't read the books you linked to in your post.)

Yes, I just calculated Elizabeth's marriage lunar return with the standard given time of her birth (2:40 am), and sidereally (Krishnamurti zodiac) 5 Sco 47 is on the descendant with Venus at 5 Sco 50. Tight Venus orb as you pointed out.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3601
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks isaac!

don't you think using precession is a polite way of saying the sidereal system works 90-95% of the time, but the tropical system doesn't? that is what it looks like to me... i think therese is saying the same thing..

this is further emphasized when you consider the planets involved and what houses they rule in the sidereal verses tropical system... i could show this if you'd like... it just seems to me accounting for precession is like wanting to use the sidereal system while continuing on work with the tropical zodiac.. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me! what are you thoughts isaac? thanks
james
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srsedna



Joined: 22 May 2019
Posts: 20

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

After much observation, this is the way I see it (as a tropical astrologer): a regular solar return and a precession-corrected solar return for a given year complement each other. I think the "law" behind this is that, just like time, revolutions are both "absolute" (i.e., a complete 360 against the background of fixed stars) and "relative" to a moving starting point related to the planet in question, (which is, of course, tropical 0 Aries for the sun) and both perspectives add details of a complete image. The easiest way to prove this is to study solar returns for deaths: in the cases where death is vaguely hinted in the tropical solar return, it will be blatantly evident in the precession-corrected return (as Isaac says, angles seem to be more important in them and you will find angular Plutos and Mars very often), and the opposite is also true: sometimes death will be more evident in the tropical return.

I agree with Isaac that lunar returns should always be precession-corrected, and I add that this law would explain why (at least in my experience) tropical lunar returns are so vague and seemingly unrelated to actual events: because for a revolution of the moon, it makes no sense to take tropical 0 Aries as a reference point! You have to measure the relative revolutions of the moon with its distance to the north node. In Solar Fire you can do this with the electional search tool, looking for the exact moment in which the transiting Moon is in the same natal angle from the transiting node as they were in the radix. Alternatively, you can copy the radix, make it draconic, cast a lunar return then convert the return back to Tropical and the result will be the same. Observe how the moon in these returns, which travels backwards at the same rate as the nodes, interacts with the radix during important events.

I have been observing this phenomenon alone for some time and I'm curious to see if anyone finds the same.

Best wishes,
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Srsedna wrote:
Quote:
After much observation, this is the way I see it (as a tropical astrologer): a regular solar return and a precession-corrected solar return for a given year complement each other. I think the "law" behind this is that, just like time, revolutions are both "absolute" (i.e., a complete 360 against the background of fixed stars) and "relative" to a moving starting point related to the planet in question, (which is, of course, tropical 0 Aries for the sun) and both perspectives add details of a complete image. The easiest way to prove this is to study solar returns for deaths: in the cases where death is vaguely hinted in the tropical solar return, it will be blatantly evident in the precession-corrected return (as Isaac says, angles seem to be more important in them and you will find angular Plutos and Mars very often), [and the opposite is also true: sometimes death will be more evident in the tropical return.]

Srsedna, I think your statement is trying to say that we can have our cake and eat it too. (Just use the return which most clearly seems to show death!) The only way to answer the precessed/non-precessed return question is with a well controlled research project. We actually have ideal data to check death returns with the Astrologers' Memorial site (if it's still active).

But then you say:
Quote:
I agree with Isaac that lunar returns should always be precession-corrected, and I add that this law would explain why (at least in my experience) tropical lunar returns are so vague and seemingly unrelated to actual events: because for a revolution of the moon, it makes no sense to take tropical 0 Aries as a reference point!

So I'm confused because these two statements (Death is seen in both tropical and precession corrected returns, but lunar returns should always be precession corrected) seem to contradict each other?
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srsedna



Joined: 22 May 2019
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Therese,

Thanks for your message; I see how I struggled with words a bit, but what I meant (TLDR at the bottom), in other words, was that:

1) I have the suspicion -and am still researching it- that you should look at both solar returns, i.e., corrected and uncorrected because they complement each other in ways that are still not understood. I have always found indicators of death in regular, tropical solar returns when looking back at them, but many times I was unsatisfied with said indicators, because they were rather general and I had seen them come up in non-deadly returns as well. When I heard about precession-corrected SRs I reviewed a handful of cases and ended up with the impression that, for the year of the deaths, both returns had indicators, with one of the returns always being more dramatic than the other. I am aware that this might be an induction from me, that's why I wanted to share the idea and see if others have similar results. So far I haven't found a case where death is vague or absent in both returns for the year of death.

2) Just as tropical solar returns have their companion in precession-corrected ones, lunar returns should have a companion too. I started studying this under the assumption that this should be about tropical lunar returns and their precession-corrected counterparts, but I soon got frustrated because the precession-corrected LRs were highly accurate while the uncorrected ones didn't seem to match the facts much, unless you forced your interpretation a lot (the actual reason why I had stopped looking at them a long time ago). Then, it occurred to me to treat the north node as a "secondary" reference point for the lunar cycle instead of the vernal equinox, which was maybe appropriate for the Sun, and to look at the charts of the moment in which the transiting moon was in the same angle from the transiting NN as they were in the radix, and the results surprised me.

TLDR: Returns are twofold: the chart for the moment the planet in question returns to the same position against the background of fixed stars, and the chart for the moment the planet in question returns to the same position relative to its node. In the case of the Sun, the "node" is the vernal equinox.

Please do note that I'm not arguing for the use of the tropical or the sidereal zodiac here; you can apply these methods sidereally by locating the vernal equinox and the north node in the sidereal chart and using them as your reference points for the companions of the SR and the LR. Of course, in that case the names would be different because the "correction" (which is an unhappy word for this usage anyway) would be made to the returns relative to the vernal equinox and the north node.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

srsedna

thanks for your thoughtful and well considered comments.. i like what you say about the nodes of the sun being the equinoxes.. i have read that before, but no one talks about it.. very good!

i was thinking it would be interesting to do a study on the idea of how much relevance the solar and lunar returns have on the coincidence of how they appear in the year or month before a person dies.. i would be willing to do a chart comparison using a tropical and sidereal chart for the same person to see how the results pan out... the challenge would be to find a chart to begin that everyone could agree upon, or of relevance..

i know that kobe bryant has just died with a number of others including one of his daughters.. there is an A rated birth chart for the daughter that died at adb - here
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bryant,_Gianna

i could use this as an example if others were receptive to this, or another chart if not.. thoughts??

alternatively, we could use robert zollers chart who just passed away a few days ago.. rated A from memory.. https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Zoller,_Robert_E.
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