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which house stands for tenants?
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: which house stands for tenants? Reply with quote

in the question "when will i find a tenant for my condo?"

should i look at the 7th, as a partner in a contract, or to the 6th, because Deb writes: Goldstein-Jacobson mentions those who live on the native's property, such as caretakers, au-pairs, lodgers, etc.?
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 6th usually stands for tenants, according to Lilly I believe..,
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Virgolass



Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 169

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heh...where's the condo? I'm looking for one!
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Razz it's in brussels, virgolass, in a beautiful tree-lined lane, on the 5th floor, with a gorgeous view over the tree tops
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 79

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lilly writes:

The Sixth House.

It concerneth Men and Mid-servants, Gallislaves, Hogges, Sheep, Goats, Hares, Connies, all manner of lesser Cattle, and profit and losse got thereby; Sicknesse, it’s quality and cause, principall humour offending, curable or not curable, whether the disease be short or long; Day—labourers, Tenants, Farmers, Shepherds, Hogheards, Neatherds, Warriners; and it signifieth Unkles, or the Fathers Brothers and Sisters.
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 407
Location: Wales

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes tenants were traditionally the 6th house. But a tenant then was not just someone who rented from you but someone who was in effect a dependent also, they were also usually farmers or otherwise part of the ouput of the estate. The relationship was very unequal.

Now I would be inclined to say that having a tenant is just another equal business relationhip and should be given 7th.

Although, having said that, it may vary depending on the law of the country concerned.
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thks you all. both 6th and 7th make sense. maybe 7th for a future tenant, whom one is going to sign a contract with, and 6th for someone who already is a tenant and living in one's house?

i drew a horary last Friday. it had cancer rising, aquarius in 6th and capricorn in 7th. hence no matter what house i use, teh future tenant is represented by saturn, in detriment in leo on the cusp of the 2d house... Saturn also squares Jupiter, in 4th.

Moon representing me was at 18 Aries, 6 degrees away from a trine with Saturn. I take it that either in 6 days or 6 weeks from last Friday I will find a candidate-tenant... but given his bad looking significator, I guess that it's better that I reject him and wait for somebody else.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5182
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting question. While there is little doubt that tenants had a 6th house status in Lilly's time society has changed substantially in the last 350 years. In Lilly's time a tenant was little different to a servant. Nowadays though most countries have laws regulating agreements between landlord and tenant. On this basis John Frawley argues that tenants should be considered under the 7th house in modern charts since they are simply parties to a contractual agreement. His argument is that the astrology hasn't changed simply the social implication of the term 'tenant'.

Despite the logic of Frawley's position the practical reality is often rather different. I happen to work in this field and my experience of many landlords is that they regard their tenants as second class citizens and treat them accordingly. No offence to you nice landlords out there!

Moreover, where a tenant is a lodger ie someone living with a resident landlord I would think there is a strong case for arguing a sixth house association.

Mark
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 79

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would still use the 6th house for tenants. They do not have an equal relationship to the landlord who owns the property and sets the conditions for living in his or her building. Someone who buys a house is represented by the 7th house because the person who purchases a house has ultimate say over what happens there. The tenant is subserviant to the wishes and rules of the landlord, who can evict a misbehaving tenant. Such a subordinate or subservient relatiionship falls in the 6th house rather than the 7th.

Tony
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5182
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tony,

I would tend to agree with you overall and go for the 6th house. Treating a tenant and Landlord as equal parties freely entering into a contract is too idealistic a version of reality. The landlord usually draws up the contract and the potential tenant has to agree to their terms on a take it or leave it basis. Ultimately, the tenant is living on property/land belonging to someone else. In that sense the tenant is in a subservient position.

Still I think Frawley's argument shows we shouldn't adopt an automatic approach to such questions.

The situation does vary legally from country to country. I don't know about the USA but in Europe many states have legislation conferring more rights to tenants and significantly limiting the rights of landlords to impose unreasonable terms. In that sense the legal system intervenes into the situation making it more than simply a contract dictated by the landlord. Contracts created by landlords are subservient to the national law on housing in most European countries. Its true the landlord can seek to evict a tenant for rent arrears or bad behaviour. However, in many countries bad landlords can be prosecuted for failing in their legal obligations e.g. repairs. Its not all one way traffic.

However, the term 'tenant' does not necessarily refer to people in similar situations or with equal rights. For example, those with short term contracts/leases or those living with a resident landlord are clearly in a weaker position.

Mark
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AquarianEssence



Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Michigan, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: What is a Connie Reply with quote

I've been a hidden guest for some time now but had to make myself know after reading this thread. Hi, I'm Connie.

Tony quotes, "It concerneth Men and Mid-servants, Gallislaves, Hogges, Sheep, Goats, Hares, Connies, all manner of lesser Cattle...". I'd heard of Connie Mack, the baseball player who shares my birth name, Connie Frances, a singer but never an animal named Connie. I've Googled and Wikied but come up with nothing. What kind of animal is this?

Great Forum and website, by the way Thumbs up
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 407
Location: Wales

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What kind of animal is this?


probably a spelling version of coney a kind of wild rabbit
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piglet



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 20

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Darkness seizes to exist"? What does it seize?

Surely, you must mean 'ceases to exist', don't you? Very Happy
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AquarianEssence



Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Michigan, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooops, ok, all better now. Embarassed Great first impression, huh? Actually I have been seized by darkness, but almost have it under control. New computer with new operating system and DSL opened us up to all kinds of internet creatures of the night. I love the insight I get when I watch my spelling errors. Our bodies talk to us.

Thanks for the lead on coney, Amelia. It is a hare and there is a constellation Lepus which is close to Gemini. That's where I'd put rabbits but Virgo is associated with all small animals, I guess. A coney is also an Archaic name for a gullible person, dupe.
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piglet



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 20

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure we've all been seized by darkness at one point or another in our lives! Laughing

Tolkien used the word 'coney' in LOTR; it's a nice old-fashioned word.
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